How is a stateless society most likely to be achieved?

Just curious as to other people's thoughts on what is most likely to bring about a stateless society?

- Secessionism
- Agorism
- The entire government just collapsing under its own weight
- anything else?

The idea that government is not necessary has to spread through some population.

If you could magically remove all government today it would start to reappear immediately.

Once people view all coercive acts with disgust, and not make exception for certain uniforms, then government will fade away.

In the mean time I avoid and ignore it as best I can.

Agree with Nomad,

Secession is not how it happens. State collapse and no returning state is not how it happens. How it happens is through modern, intellectual rationality and morality.

We're not going to trick society into AC. Look at literal religion, for example. Literal religion is a parasite and society is/was the host ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viruses_of_the_Mind ). The modern form started thousands of years ago. But today, for many of us, the parasite can't live of us. With many of us, the parasite dies. And what happens to our modern understanding of nature? It's going to stay with us and with our children. The fruit of this freedom from literal religion is the kind of lives we have because of it. We're no longer stuck in truly dead relationships and sheepish behavior. Compare your life of intellectual freedom to one where you had to go to church every week and play nice with everyone who beliefs in invisible sky demons?

And how did you get free from that? There was no strategizing, no tactical planning, nothing of that. Instead, you were sparked with knowledge and insight, kept learning, and the more you learned, the free-er you became.

All of this is basically true for a voluntary society as well. How will secession happen? Well, first you need a lot of people who want out and understand an alternative. So it's not about secession, it's about a change in the whole of society.

volition wrote:Just curious as to other people's thoughts on what is most likely to bring about a stateless society?

- Secessionism
- Agorism
- The entire government just collapsing under its own weight
- anything else?

All of the above.

As for which will be first, I have a little pet theory that as soon as there's enough market anarchists with enough funds, they'll contact each other through some massive movement and eventually move to a particular geographical area. Probably make arrangements to buy a whole chunk of land among them (individually) and make arrangements to pay the local state some fee+bribe to get them off permanently. The free economy should progress pretty fast, especially if the governments of the world can be bribed into allowing cheaper trade, with zero risk of going to prison if you get caught. Then you'd get immigration in mass.

Yes, I have a very blunt understanding of politics and economics, so I probably made like a 1000 mistakes there . Please feel free to be merciless.

Can you trust them?

The problem with government (really they are just people) is that they force others. Lying and stealing are part of this. What will you do if, surprise, they lie and steal from you?

People already dislike being lied to and stolen from and kidnapped and raped. Most claim (I think truthfully) that they don't want to do these things either.

When they see that these things are the same even when called government then we won't need to pay them off and move to some corner of Alaska.

Nomad wrote:Can you trust them?

The problem with government (really they are just people) is that they force others. Lying and stealing are part of this. What will you do if, surprise, they lie and steal from you?

It seems to work pretty well for the large corporations of the world. And they are risking jail time. I have a kind of gut feeling against the idea of bribing politicians, but atm I can't see anything wrong with that as long as you're not hurting anyone and promoting freedom. Plus you get to make huge profits off it!

Nomad wrote:
When they see that these things are the same even when called government then we won't need to pay them off and move to some corner of Alaska.

Sure, and the process is exponential. The meme of voluntarism is so powerful. But it'll take time to spread. That's why I think this type of society will come before mass scale anarchism.

My sample is probably quite tainted and my analysis biased, but it seems to me that more and more people are questioning things. Which leads to realizations of truth. I don't think it'll be too long before the first philosophically based stateless society forms. I'm confident it'll happen in the next 50 years. I want to say the next 10 years. Things are progressing pretty fast in my subjective view, at least amongst the intellectually inclined.

FireUp wrote:

It seems to work pretty well for the large corporations of the world...

Corporations still can't smoke weed (in USA anyway, lol) and they can't make a one time payment for freedom either.

I realize that corporations are "real" in some sense, but I don't find them a useful way to think here. If people were free then corporations would be free too. If corporations are free, I don't even know what that means.

I hope you are right about things progressing fast. My tainted sample looks good too, my regular sample not so much. Crisis ought to cause people to rethink some things, or think for the first time. Unemployment will give them the time. Maybe this is why gov fights unemployment vigorously, heh.

Nomad wrote:Corporations still can't smoke weed (in USA anyway, lol) and they can't make a one time payment for freedom either.

I realize that corporations are "real" in some sense, but I don't find them a useful way to think here. If people were free then corporations would be free too. If corporations are free, I don't even know what that means.

What I meant is that corporations make a huge profit off of bribing politicians, and the fact that the politicians may fail to deliver doesn't seem to prevent them. Also, these corporations are risking jail time, because they're living in a place where there's a government that locks people in prison for this. If you're bribing them from anarcholandia, there's not much they can do.

Nomad wrote:
Unemployment will give them the time. Maybe this is why gov fights unemployment vigorously, heh.

Interesting.

I hope it will happen through economic inefficiencies and irrelevance. Government simply cannot keep up with the market. Market forces are rising like floodwaters, and government with its ponderous and inflexible bureaucracies will simply be unable to keep up. Whatever barriers government tries to erect, the market flows around, and ultimately sweeps them away. This very process erodes the belief in the necessity of government, as people witness that it is unable to cope and that the market can. Ultimately the state will just become irrelevant.

Of course, on the track we are now on, there could very well by a calamitous crash in the near term, with a titantic destruction of wealth that may set this process back, maybe decades. My hope though is that the world doesn't go the way of Haiti and Zimbabwe, but rather something like the fall of the Soviet Union. But if it happens worldwide, there will be no external influence to swoop in an immediately replace communism with western style corporatism, which is what the west did with the former Soviet Union.

Borodog wrote: Whatever barriers government tries to erect, the market flows around, and ultimately sweeps them away. This very process erodes the belief in the necessity of government, as people witness that it is unable to cope and that the market can.

So many people just claim that we need stronger barriers though. I hope you are right, but I have a hard time being optimistic.

Nomad wrote:

Borodog wrote: Whatever barriers government tries to erect, the market flows around, and ultimately sweeps them away. This very process erodes the belief in the necessity of government, as people witness that it is unable to cope and that the market can.

So many people just claim that we need stronger barriers though. I hope you are right, but I have a hard time being optimistic.

Be optimistic!! The naysayers are not more powerful than nature.

Think of when a housing bubble collapses. Your average mofo might still be telling you about how much home equity he has, but the market still overwhelms the noise and brings prices down.

Statism is just a bubble too. The market is always trying to restore order, whether it's a credit crisis or statism at large, and it never stops. It just keeps pushing. And when you believe in voluntarism over coercion, you're recognizing that the market is ultimately more powerful than those who want to interfere with it. (That which is best for humans will win out.)

There's 2 ideas I draw from this.

1. There's no way to peace, peace is the way. A little cliche but meaning don't sit around and think about how can I be peaceful? just start being peaceful.
2. I think every opportunity or idea should be used. minarchist, anarcho cap, secessionist, grey markets, agorism, off the grid, apolitical, or in the system/out of the system activism, civil disobedience, etc because they all have the same goal (lesser government hopefully) and eventually through trial and error you will find the most successful way instead of spending all this time trying to figure out the best way on paper.

There's risk and reward, and failure shouldn't be looked down upon. There's a quote I think of Thomas Edison that's used a lot. It is something like " It took me 200 tries to invent the light bulb but at least I know 199 ways how to not make a light bulb."