Being understanding towards haters and abusers.

by FireUp Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:10 pm

Originally posted by Nielsio:

If you realize exactly why they are the way they are, then you'll realize that being snarky cannot help. The reason people cling to violent and authoritarian ideologies is because that's the lesson they've been learned. That lesson is that if someone behaves abnormal, that the proper way to respond is to bully them and to make them feel bad. The lesson they have not learned, have no understanding of and have no practice in, is that if someone behaves abnormal, then that is an effect; to understand that effect we must put ourselves in the shoes of that person. And we can only do that if that person allows us into their world. We therefore need empathy, understanding of psychology and be non-judgmental. And we might finally arrive at the conclusion that the person wasn't behaving abnormal, but perfectly natural, given the circumstances.

So we want the person we're debating with to learn that lesson, so that he stops supporting authoritarian ideologies directed to others. However, in order for that person to get there we must deal with him in that exact same way first. So: if you're snarky towards someone, there is 0 chance that he'll be better to others. Or to put it another way: you can't punish people into becoming better people.

Yeah, so true. It's so hard to do, though. In prison (I mean family and school) I've always learned that aggression, condescension, indifference and sarcasm were the way to go with people who don't share my views. I really see that treating people well is the only thing that works, and often it does work beautifully. It's gotten easier the more I do it, but it's still really hard with some people. Maybe that's all it takes. Overcoming the fear.

One thing I need to watch for: There's a point where you just can't keep trying after seeing that they're not listening. I need to learn to draw this line in real time. You can always be nicer and less judgmental, but if you use this to self attack, you can trick yourself into thinking that it's your fail that they're not seeing the light. I don't know, I just see a pattern of my fear driving me to hold back saying some things or being almost intentionally unclear when I'm talking to these people, and then beat myself up about it, like I should be able to overcome the fear. But I can't overcome the fear because it reinforces itself with this cycle of self attacks. Yeah, I really need to stop doing that.

by AJK Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:06 pm

You definitely make some good points. However, snarky and sarcastic remarks aren't just used as a bullying tactic, but it is also a good way to win an argument. Or at least appear that you have won the argument. And I think that this is actually pretty important in getting people to learn more. For our side though it can work both ways. It is bad because ideas that go against the main stream can be attacked forever and easily labeled as crackpot and looney. A lot of times though, opponents to freedom will have contradictory arguments that are poorly thought out or just plain evil. A mean spirited quip can be good to put them in their place, and impress bystanders.

I know on the 2+2 forums some posters will ask questions to make a point. I suppose this is what you guys are talking about when you say to be understanding, but it is pretty annoying and condescending. There is definitely a place for it, but first there must be some understanding between the two participants and acknowledgment that the discussion will go in that direction.

by FireUp Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:28 pm

Wow, that looked a lot like "it's condescending to not be condescending".

And yes, condescension wins arguments, but not in the way we'd want:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFpKFY0qdVg

by alaw911 Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:42 pm

AJK wrote:However, snarky and sarcastic remarks aren't just used as a bullying tactic, but it is also a good way to win an argument. Or at least appear that you have won the argument.

It will appear that way to whom? To people who are curious, honest, interested, etc.?

If someone is won over by bullying tactics, he's not an advocate of truth, reason, love, freedom anyways. (In fact, I'd rather he call himself a statist.)

I know on the 2+2 forums some posters will ask questions to make a point. I suppose this is what you guys are talking about when you say to be understanding, but it is pretty annoying and condescending.

Which is a good debate tactic in your view, right?

by alaw911 Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:56 pm

FireUp wrote:You can always be nicer and less judgmental, but if you use this to self attack, you can trick yourself into thinking that it's your fail that they're not seeing the light. I don't know, I just see a pattern of my fear driving to hold me back saying some things or being almost intentionally unclear when I'm talking to these people, and then beat myself up about it, like I should be able to overcome the fear. But I can't overcome the fear because it reinforces itself with this cycle of self attacks. Yeah, I really need to stop doing that.

Why do you think you self-attack?

If I had to guess I would assume it has to do with your "prison" days. Where being nice and polite was a sign of weakness rather than strength.

I'm not exactly sure I'm following your thought process, but bits and pieces of it definitely resonated with me, so I'm curious to hear more if you have more.

by FireUp Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:19 am

alaw911 wrote:
If I had to guess I would assume it has to do with your "prison" days. Where being nice and polite was a sign of weakness rather than strength.

Definitely. Also, self attacks cause less short-term harm than external attacks. Long-term though, especially if you continue doing this well into your adult life, they just kill you.

alaw911 wrote:
I'm not exactly sure I'm following your thought process, but bits and pieces of it definitely resonated with me, so I'm curious to hear more if you have more.

I'll try to put it another way and see if it's clearer.

You can always be a little bit nicer and less judgmental, and it's good to try to improve. But what I often do is blame myself for not being 100% perfect in these aspects, as if that's what solely caused someone to misunderstand, when it's clear the other person brought much less good will than I did into the conversation.

So my pattern is more or less: fear ---> hold stuff back and be less open and vulnerable ----> fail to get through ---> self-attack ---> irritation ---> confusion ---> fear

Haven't slept in 35hs, I'll probably post some more on this later on. Feel free to reply obv.

by **Nielsio** Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:25 am

FireUp wrote:You can always be a little bit nicer and less judgmental, and it's good to try to improve. But what I often do is blame myself for not being 100% perfect in these aspects, as if that's what solely caused someone to misunderstand, when it's clear the other person brought much less good will than I did into the conversation.

You could call this being results-oriented. The other person isn't accepting of the ideas and arguments and that feedback affects us.

What you can try is to become less attached to the results, and focus on being a nice person. You understand that the other person is missing a lot of knowledge and needs to process a lot of things, and it's probably not in the cards for that person to understand the current debate. If you take this perspective you'll see that there is a lot to take into account. We can think really deeply about what those things are that prevent that person from seeing the truth. This way there is also less frustration because you see the long history that is behind the current conversation and how thinking you can clinch it so easily would be foolish. So the things that you do say you regard as bits of truth, for another for the taking. And the fact that you give it nicely is itself already a big step in the right direction, for that person's worldview and history.

by alaw911 Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:09 pm

FireUp wrote:You can always be a little bit nicer and less judgmental, and it's good to try to improve. But what I often do is blame myself for not being 100% perfect in these aspects, as if that's what solely caused someone to misunderstand, when it's clear the other person brought much less good will than I did into the conversation.

Ahhhh, I see now. I definitely know what you mean.

I think Nielsio is spot on with the result-oriented thing. Think of these people as a poker tournament with 10,000 players in it. Your job is to maintain an even keel and make good decisions. Whatever happens outside your control isn't actually what's important.

Also, I think it's OK to accept not being able to be 100% in every situation life throws at you. Not that you shouldn't push for it, but you should remember it's a challenge, and not the end of the world if you fall a little short. What's important is that you're aware of it, and then you can think about why you fell short, if it's a situation you should separate from, and in general learn from it. Some people are elaborate obstacles, so it'd be hard to dive out and talk to them and then not slip a bit before you learn. (So my point is when you catch yourself not being perfect, it's an opportunity to better yourself, even if in the moment it seems irritating.)

by FireUp Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:11 pm

Thanks guys. I agree so much. It's just really hard to do. The environment I grew up in was the complete opposite of all this. I think I'm gonna try meditation.

by SethJ Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:47 pm

FireUp wrote: I think I'm gonna try meditation.

I'd definitely recommend it.

I think Nielsio put it very well. I know I'm not always perfect in the way I handle myself in this regard, but I do try. I know I can sometimes come off as a bit condescending in tone (and most of the time I don't even mean to), but I think that comes from many years of debating with people with complete polar opposite political and philosophical perspectives than me.

by Hikikomori Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:19 pm

FireUp wrote:Wow, that looked a lot like "it's condescending to not be condescending".

And yes, condescension wins arguments, but not in the way we'd want:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFpKFY0qdVg

I enjoyed this video. I definitely need some work on that.

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